Lenses for Liberation with Zach Lambert

[00:00:01] Speaker A: You're listening to the Inverse Podcast where we explore how the scriptures can turn our world upside down or how it. [00:00:07] Speaker B: Can be weaponized to uphold the status quo. I'm Drew Hart. [00:00:11] Speaker A: And I'm Jared McKenna and this is Inverse. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Friends. We've got a wonderful guest today, someone that I've begun to know a little bit recently, and that is Zach Lamberts. He is the lead pastor and founder of Restore Austin, a church in urban Austin, Texas. He's also the author of the bestselling book Better Ways to Read the Transforming a Weapon of Harm into a Tool of Healing. He's the co founder of the Post Evangelical Collective where he serves as a board member. Zach and his wife Amy met each other in the sixth grade. And look at this. Fell in love at 17 and got married at 21. They love watching live music, discovering local Mexican food places, and playing with their two boys. Zach, you officially, I think just already have the vibes to fit in well with Inverse Podcast. But nonetheless, welcome to Inverse Podcast. We're grateful to have you with us. [00:01:21] Speaker C: Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Honestly. It's like one of those longtime listener, first time caller situations where I listened for a while and have followed both of you guys. Admired both of y'. All and yeah, grateful to be on. So thanks for inviting me. [00:01:38] Speaker A: I was like we were saying in prayer before we press record. Just thankful for your witness, for those whom you've chosen to stand with and amongst and learn from when so many people choose a ministerial career over those whom Christ has found amongst. We're thankful for your integrity, mate. We, we love you and it's a joy to be able to share your ministry with those who don't know you. I'm aware that lots of people will know of what you're doing and the important work of restore, but so glad to be able to introduce somebody we trust to people who are looking to find churches who are reimagining well and loving well. So thanks for being with us. Hey mate, as we start, before you give us a text, would you invite us into this new work that you've just offered the world and sketch it a little bit for those who want to explore your ministry through pages rather than pulpits. [00:02:34] Speaker C: Absolutely man. Thanks for that introduction and Drew as well. I was noticing that it said best selling author and you know, I think with with Amazon lists that is not even a hard thing to achieve anymore. I think the book is not technically out yet, so I think the publisher has thrown in bestselling author because it and Pre orders charted on a very obscure faith Amazon list. So I'm grateful for the generosity of that. [00:03:02] Speaker A: This is a sign that Zach has been like googling, how do I endear myself to Australians and has worked out that self deprecation is an important Australian value. I need to tear myself down to other people. [00:03:15] Speaker B: He did his homework. [00:03:16] Speaker A: You're doing well, mate. You're doing well. [00:03:18] Speaker C: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Yeah. You know, the way that you introduced the work at restore, that that's really the birthplace of this book is pastoral ministry. And we launched our church about a decade ago. February of this next year will be 10 years. And so you'll, if you read it, you'll hear lots of stories of folks in our church. And we started as, as a church for people who have struggled to fit in in kind of traditional church spaces who felt ecclesiologically homeless, so to speak, and specifically for people who have been pushed out of faith spaces and didn't feel like they had anywhere else to go. Even the, the name restore. We really talked about restoring faith in Jesus in the church alongside, you know, locking arms with folks to help bring restoration to people in communities in our city. And so that's the work we've been trying to do very imperfectly, but been trying to do for a decade in as we do a lot of, whether it's through sermons or small groups, Bible studies, we do a lot of reimagining of how we engage with various texts, especially texts that have been weaponized against folks in our community. And so we feel like the answer to bad Bible interpretation isn't no Bible, it's better Bible interpretation. The answer to a weaponized Bible is actually, you know, what scripture talks about in the transformation of weapons into tools and plowshares. Right. And so that's really the hope that that's what we've been trying to do at RESTORE for a decade. And so this book is really a collection of stories from our church, but also stuff that I've learned from incredible scholars, leaders, activists, people all over the place. And I actually have this whole like 3 paragraph section in the very introduction that just lists people that have been really influential for me and for the book and quote people throughout. I, I've been making this joke, but it's true that if somebody reads this and the only thing that they come away with is that they're going to start reading more James cone and bell hooks, you know, then like I'm good. You know what I mean? [00:05:18] Speaker A: Yeah, right, right. [00:05:19] Speaker C: It will have worked out so that's really where it came out of. And. And then also the last thing I'll add is, you know, after preaching a sermon, let's say, you know, maybe a reimagining of. Of a story like Noah's Ark or something, right? And not as this, you know, kind of angry catast that an angry God inflicted on humanity, but maybe a little bit different way of engaging with it. But any given text, you know, I might. We might be having discussion afterwards, and people would ask questions like, where did you hear that? You know, I've grown up in church my whole life. Never heard an interpretation like that. And I would say, well, read this book or listen to this person or, you know, go to school. But for a lot of people, right, like, they. They don't have the time, capacity, bandwidth to, you know, jump into an academic program or to read a ton of books. And I felt like I just wanted to singular resource that I could hand to people and say, here's maybe a little bit better framework that could apply to a number of given texts and hopefully help you read the Bible in better ways. So that's how it kind of came about. It was very, very pastoral. I am not comparing myself to Dr. King, but Dr. King used to always say, you know, I'm just a Baptist preacher. At the end of the day, I'm a Baptist preacher, and I feel that way. I think at the end of the day, I'm a local church pastor, and this is really just a collection of work that's come out of a decade of that ministry here in Austin. [00:06:38] Speaker B: Yeah, well, we love that, obviously. We love to think about how people's lives intersect with how they engage in the Scriptures and embody that out in actual practice. And so what a gift it is for you to write such a resource for folks. I mean, I think that that's really helpful and needed right now. Speaking of those connections, right, as we tease us a little bit around some of your own ministry in life and what led you to writing that book? Let's turn to scripture a little bit. And can you share what passage you'd like to ground our conversation in for today? [00:07:10] Speaker C: Yeah, we're going to be in Luke chapter 21, verses 1 through 6. I'm going to read it out of the new living version. While Jesus was in the temple, he watched the rich people dropping their gifts in the collection box. Then a poor widow came by and dropped in two small coins. I tell you the truth, Jesus said, this poor widow has given more than all the rest of them. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she had to live on. Some of his disciples began talking about the majestic stonework of the temple and the memorial decorations on the wall. But Jesus said, the time is coming when all these things will be completely demolished. No one stone will be left on top of another. [00:07:54] Speaker A: Mate, you know where this first question goes? When do you first remember encountering the Bible? [00:08:02] Speaker C: Well, I grew up in the Southern Baptist tradition in a Southern Baptist megachurch here in Austin in the. I was born in 88, so, you know, late 80s and 90s. I was the third generation in that church. And in Austin, my. My grandparents helped start that church way back in the day. And then my dad was baptized in it, my sister and I were baptized in it. And it was a pretty typical kind of culture warring white evangelical Southern Baptist Church. And it was a lot of hellfire and brimstone. I had this, this pastor who everybod everybody just called Preacher. That was, that was like his first name, you know, like his wife's name was Barbara. And when somebody would ask like how they were doing as a couple, they would say, have you talked to Preacher and Barbara? I mean, that was like, that was his name. And Preacher was a fiery, fiery Southern Baptist preacher, you know, and was somebody who, you know, would bang the pulpit and yell. And so I would say my first encounters with the Bible were scary. I remember sitting as a kid in our customary pew, still remember exactly where it was. My grandfather was an usher and collected the offering. And it was scary to hear this. You know, it was like I remember vividly the big Bible open up and the sermon would come, and I really enjoyed the singing and the hymns and all that stuff. But when it got to the sermon, it really was like nerve wracking. You know, I could feel my anxiety rising even as a kid leading up to the sermon, knowing that we were all about to get yelled at. So that was my very first encounter with it. And I'm not sure my relationship with it improved through any of my formative years as a child or a teen. In fact, I tell this story in the very beginning of the book, but I remember vividly being a sixth grader, I was in a. We had switched churches by this time, moved a little closer to home, but kind of the exact same Southern Baptist style of church. And I was in a youth group and it was around Easter time, and our youth pastor was teaching about Jesus on the cross and he was talking about how when Jesus says father Father, why have you forsaken me? And he says, well, you know, Jesus had all of our sin on him. You know, we were the ones that nailed him to the cross. It was our fault. And. And then he said, and so God, because God's perfect and can't be around sin, he abandoned Jesus, you know, while Jesus was on the cross, turned his back away, left him all alone. And I remember just popping my hand in the air and being like, you always talk about how God is this great Father and loving. He abandons his son in his greatest time of need. Couldn't believe it. And my youth pastor says, go outside, Zach. And so I go sit in the. [00:10:31] Speaker A: Hallway and, wow, you got sent out for that question. [00:10:34] Speaker B: You ask questions. [00:10:36] Speaker C: You're not supposed to ask questions. And I was someone who. I probably asked him in a pretty aggressive, obnoxious kind of a way, you know, if I was being. If I'm being honest with everybody here. But that night when I. When he came out after Bible study, he said, stay right there, and I want to talk to you and your parents when they get here. And so they came over, they picked me up, and he said, you, son is questioning my teaching. He's disrupting my Bible studies. He's causing other kids to doubt their faith with his disruptions and questions. And he is no longer allowed to come to youth group anymore. Wow. [00:11:08] Speaker A: Wow. [00:11:08] Speaker C: And my parents, to their credit, fought it. Took it all the way to the senior pastor. But he said, hey, it's, you know, it's his youth group. He gets to do what he wants. And so there was another piece of that connected to the Bible where I thought, not only do I not understand it, but. But it's this thing that it seems to be so important and holy to, like, everybody in my life. My parents were in vocational ministry. All of our friends were in church, especially in Southern Baptist churches. And it was this hugely elevated thing, but I just could not get my mind around it, my hands around it. I didn't understand it. I struggled with it. And now I'd been pretty explicitly told, you can't ask questions, and you are not welcome in Bible studies anymore. And so I developed a pretty antagonistic relationship with the scriptures from a young age. [00:11:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that is wild. That is a wild about. How old are you at that moment when you're being kicked out, like, of Sunday school? [00:12:01] Speaker C: 12. 13. Are you probably 12? [00:12:04] Speaker B: 13? Yeah. [00:12:04] Speaker C: Yeah. I was a middle schooler. [00:12:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:06] Speaker A: That said, I can't imagine, like, Ezekiel in Hebrew school sitting patiently either. [00:12:12] Speaker C: Right. Like, I appreciate that cop. Yeah. Thank you. [00:12:17] Speaker A: But it's also wild and for a global audience who Southern Baptist might sound like a descriptor of Baptist and you're from the south, that no. Southern Baptist is a particular Baptist denomination started because of its support of slavery and left the like Global Baptist Federation. My wife's going to be so mad that I didn't use the right language for the Baptist World Alliance. Is it because of their opposition both to women in full ministry and LGBT people as well? Have I got that right? In terms of summing up, Southern Baptists. [00:12:52] Speaker C: The first part for sure, they, they formed the Southern Baptist formed in the mid 19th century explicitly against abolition and because they wanted their clergy and missionaries to continue to be able to enslave people. And they provided theological justification for that. And then, yeah, I mean, they, they've always been strictly complementarian, strictly anti lgbtq. [00:13:14] Speaker A: And maybe for a global kind of setting as well. While many people would think, oh, but that hasn't really affected us to know that I think I'm correct in saying Saddleback, AKA Rick Warren, bestselling. Did he do the prayer at Obama's inauguration? He. They were Southern Baptists for a good while. So there was a way that this denomination formed in pro slavery, actually became middle class American acceptability. [00:13:43] Speaker B: But I mean, they, I, I think the Southern Baptist probably more than anyone else has had the most influence over contemporary evangelical theology and practice. I mean, completely. So their, their influence is enormous and is shipped globally and exported all over the place through missionaries and resources and such. So, I mean, yeah, the impact is enormous. [00:14:05] Speaker C: Yeah, it's the largest Protestant denomination in America. [00:14:09] Speaker A: Wow. [00:14:09] Speaker C: I mean, it's, it's massive. [00:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah, it still is massive. [00:14:12] Speaker A: Bring it all the way back to this preacher, Pastor Zach, that you're setting up for us, that whatever this white evangelicalism is, that is the Southern Baptist tradition. That's what you were formed in. And you experience the brunt of brutal. Like when you were describing, like a God that abandons you, don't worry, he won't abandon you because he just abandoned his son. That's a bad setup for trust. [00:14:40] Speaker C: Yes, it really was. And yeah, I was. I certainly had a very kind of classic, almost cartoonish picture of God in my mind as this angry old white bearded man in the sky who was just perpetually angry with me and I was just seconds away from being smited at any given point, is what I thought as a child. I always had trouble following rules and that kind of stuff. And so I was always kind of in trouble And I felt like there was always this divine threat behind the trouble that I was getting and whether I was at church or in the home. But I think what, what I began to realize, especially after I was kicked out of youth group, is that I would get in trouble by people in my life, but I didn't ever get smited. And I really thought that was God's primary function. And so I began to be really an agnostic. I thought that you've told me that God's gonna hurt me if I do something. Didn't get you, there's no smiting. So I was like, I guess he's not real. But I had just a, yeah, purely one dimensional understanding of God and of the scriptures because of that. And it really, that did not change until I'm 17 years old, somewhere before my senior year of high school. And I've spent the last few years after being kicked out of youth group really attempting to find deep identity and belonging anywhere that I could because I felt like I didn't have that in my, my family, my church, anything like that. So whether that was through sports or friends or things, and I just really struggled, struggled to find deep connection and belonging and identity and meaning transcendence anywhere. And I was starting to use drugs pretty heavily at the time. And summer before my senior of high school I overdosed and obviously made it, but the next night had an acquaintance that overdosed and drowned. And those two nights started really causing me to ask some, some more existential kind of questions of like, why am I here and is God real and have I misunderstood all of this Christianity stuff? And so it sounds trite, but it's true. I, I was like, maybe I should try to read the Bible again. And I opened up the Gospel accounts in Matthew and I just read them, you know, like, like a book, you know, I wasn't like doing the one year Bible study or I wasn't trying to, you know, pick it apart and all. I just, I just sat down and I read it and reading it that way I began to realize that I knew a lot about the beginning and the end of Jesus's story, like Christmas and Easter, you know, but I knew almost nothing about the life and the teachings of Jesus. Like I, I have this memory of being 17 and reading the Sermon on the Mount and being like, how have I never heard this before? Wow. Like it was just not a part of what was taught. I mean, you might get an occasional feeding of the 5,000 or walking on water or something like that, but I'm reading And finding out that he's getting in trouble with the Empire, he's getting in trouble with religious leaders. You know, he's getting called a, a drunk and a glutton for hanging out, partying with people too much. And he was this like radical, revolutionary Jesus. And I remember thinking, if following this Jesus is what it means to be a Christian, then I want to do that. But all the other stuff I was still really unsure about. But at that point I did fall in love with the Bible really for the first time. And it became not this scary weapon of harm, but this thing that led me to know and try to follow who became the most important person in my life as Jesus. [00:18:02] Speaker B: Well, then let's stay right there. Can you talk a little bit more? Because you kind of hinted at it already, like your actual experience of the Bible, both in the past, then this kind of journey that takes you up to that moment of you kind of wanting to follow Jesus. How are you experiencing the Bible as oppressive, liberating, a mixture of things, healing, harmful. What's going on in. And what's that journey look like for you? [00:18:27] Speaker C: I'm certainly as a, as a child and up into teenage years experiencing it mostly as oppressive and harmful and then a little just kind of boring and archaic. I actually remember after I become a Christian at 17, I do get a one year Bible because it was like, oh man, I mean, quiet time, super important. And I went right back into the churches that I came from. You know, I didn't know there were. I make this joke, but it's true. I thought that there were Catholics, Southern Baptists and liberals and like that's all that I. And I knew I wasn't a Catholic or a liberal, so I was like, I guess I'm a Southern Baptist. Well, that's kind of what fundamentalism does. I mean, fundamentalism teaches you this is all there is. And to leave this is really to leave the faith. And so I, I, you know, went back into the, these spaces and began to engage with the text and kind of, kind of new ways. But yeah, that I bought that one year Bible, I remember, and I was reading it every morning before school. It's like before my senior year of high school. And I'm reading this one passage in it, you know, do you remember those? It has like a reading from the Old Testament, a reading from Psalms or Proverbs, and a reading from the New Testament. And the whole thing was like, if you, you did it diligently 365 days in a row, you would read the Entire Bible, which was a status enriching thing in my circles. You know, if you were, you'd be an 18 year old and you read the whole Bible in a year. I mean, it was like, Zach, I'll be honest. [00:19:48] Speaker A: Sometimes when Drew and I are 18, interviewing people from the U.S. i just feel like I'm so pagan. Like, I just. It's a levels of religious enculturation that you've experienced that I'm like, that's incredible. [00:20:00] Speaker C: I'm happy for you, though. You know what I mean? Good for you. But I remember I read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, and it's not even that part of it, which is, you know, wild and, you know, one of the most weaponized texts, but it's the part afterwards where Lot, like, basically gives his daughters away to these people. I mean, it's this horrific part. And I remember I read the last verse and then that was the last part of the entry for the One Year Bible for that day. And it was supposed to enrich me to go into, like, first period biology in my high school. And I was just like, I don't know. So I continued to struggle even after that with the Bible. But, Drew, to your question about how I found the Bible to be, whether it was liberative or oppressive, I will say a real game changer was as I got into college, I began to interact with people who'd grown up in the faith who had had similar experiences of being pushed out or feeling like they didn't belong. But there was a really massive difference, and that is that they experienced it based on an intrinsic characteristic of theirs. Right? So like race, gender, sexual orientation, something like that. Like they hadn't. I'd been asking too many belligerent questions, basically, Right. Like, it was something I did is the reason I got in trouble. But it was like who they were was the reason that they were pushed out or marginalized or told that they were, you know, not really worthy to interpret scripture or whatever. And that was a massive game changer because on one level, I could empathize with this kind of like being pushed out of faith spaces. But on another level, it was never because of my race, gender orientation, anything like that. It was because of these questions that I had. And that really took this kind of weaponization of scripture to a whole new level when I began to have these really deep relationships with people who'd had it weaponized against them in their actual personhood. And that's when I began to say, okay, it's not just like, I misunderstood things or asked the wrong questions. It's that the Bible is being handled in a way that actually really hurts people, and we need to do something different. [00:22:11] Speaker B: Poof. [00:22:13] Speaker A: And, Zach, maybe some of the power of your ministry is because you've shared in that formation of. I thought it was brilliant how you summed up fundamentalism as. That they offer you that reality is as if this is all there is. And now so much of your work is actually people who are adjacent to those cultures or deeply, like, traumatized by those cultures and seeking to work it out on the other side. Like, what would it look like? I guess, with so much of your ministry being particularly in that context, what. What gift would you offer others out of your own struggle to find something that is restorative, pun intended, that is redemptive, that is transformative, that has actually been liberating for others as well. [00:23:01] Speaker C: Yeah. So I describe it like fundamentalism is like a. A dark, kind of damp basement. And you are told this is the only room in the house. You know, and if you leave this basement, you're not going to be safe anymore. You're going to be out there with the wolves and, you know, the robbers and all the things, and. And you can't leave the basement. Right. But then what happens is, you know, some. Some causative event, you know, some deconstruction, something like that. Wander up those stairs and you open the door to the basement, and you realize that there is this whole massive house above the basement that is 2000 years of Christianity, global Christianity, you know, different sects and different backgrounds and different. All kinds. I mean, and it's beautiful, you know, and helping people open the door and step out into the fullness of, what, Christianity, with all its faults, too, but also the beauty of 2000 years and the variety, I think, and that there are gifts in each and every one of those rooms that Christianity has to offer us. You know, one of those massive gifts for me is liberation theology. I first encountered it a little bit in seminary. It was one of those times where I went to a much more fundamentalist seminary. I went to Dallas Theological Seminary, and. But I had a couple of professors who, when I would ask questions, instead of shutting me down, would, you know, say, hey, come talk to me after class for a little bit. And then they would, you know, slip a book under the desk to me and say, don't tell any. Don't tell anybody. I gave this to you, you know. Yeah. And, you know, here's. Here's a Gustavo Gutierrez book. Don't tell anybody I gave it to you. And I began to. I began to really dive into. Specifically. It started with, you know, kind of like Central and South American liberation theology. But then obviously, you guys know, the pipeline then leads to Black Church in America and getting to read folks like James cone and. And bell hooks and womanist theologians and. Yeah, I read a ton of the Boff Brothers. It was. It was just. It was really liberating. And I remember thinking, wow, there we do have choices when we do biblical interpretations, when we do theology, and that some choices are better than others. And having this central hermeneutic of. Of helping people experience the flourishing that God wants for them and liberating them from anything that gets in the way of that flourishing is what I've still found to be the most helpful hermeneutic when engaging with the text. Right. Is this helping set people free? What's it. What are they being set free to? What are they being set free from? But that's the question I come back to all the time, is, is this liberating people? It's just helping them experience flourishing. One of the. I break down these, you know, these kind of four harmful lenses in the book and these four healthy lenses, and. [00:25:52] Speaker A: One of those sketch that just. Yeah, because I think that's really rich. [00:25:57] Speaker C: Absolutely. So, you know, some of it is dependent on your. On your background if you got some of these harmful lenses or not. But the four harmful ones are. The first one's literalism, which is just reading every biblical passage as if it must be historically scientifically literal, missing any kind of nuance or genre. The second one is Apocalypse, which is interpreting scripture as kind of obsessed with the end times and judgment and fear and violence and hell. I talk a lot about how, you know, eternal conscious torment in hell and this whole idea that God is. Is perpetually angry. And it really is kind of the ultimate trump card for fundamentalism. Like, if you think about fundamentalism as people really policing the edges of theology and not allowing you to question things or get outside of it, then you might have a question about, let's say, like, women in ministry roles or something like that, right? And you go to your Southern Baptist pastor and you say, in my case, and you say, hey, I know that I've heard the Bible teaches that women can't be pastors, preachers, whatever, but. But I was just reading about Junia or. Or Phoebe, Deborah or something, you know, and I'm like, what about Mary Magdalene? What about, you know, and he might say something like, well, you know, there are differences of opinions, but if you get this wrong, there's a, there's a chance that you burn in hell for all eternity. And if that is the, that is the ultimate trump card. You know what I mean? And so like this, the apocalypse lens was something that was always present in the biblical interpretation because it wasn't just here's my interpretation, there was a conflation of here is God's interpretation coming from my lips. And if you question that, it is questioning Christianity. And if you question Christianity, you will spend eternity in hell. So that's a very harmful lens that was present in a lot of my upbringing. The third harmful one is moralism, which is just really reducing the Bible to a set of dud and don'ts. And I will say the important part about these lenses is there's enough truth in any of them, right? So like there are literal things in scripture, you know, there are things that you should take very literally. But, but a wooden literalism applied across genre and all of that becomes really unhelpful. There are moral imperatives in Scripture. Taking care of the poor, loving God and loving neighbor, like all these are moral imperatives. But reducing the entirety of scripture to just a rule book becomes problematic. Again, God does get angry. You know, he gets angry when people are hurt and sinned against and when sinful systems and structures hurt people. But the idea that all God is, is mad is problematic. So I think that's what makes the, the harmful ends really so harmful because you can grab a few texts and you can make it seem like that's what they are. The last harmful one is hierarchy, which is leveraging scripture to prop up power structures, you know, which elevate some and diminish others, usually based on gender, race, status, things like that. So you might have something like an example of that's like the curse of Ham that comes out of the story of Noah, you know, which is like ham is perpetually cursed and supposedly settles in Africa. And so now like dark skinned people are perpetually cursed by God. And that was what made chattel slavery in America. Okay. And so you have this like, that's just a, that's obviously a very specific and horrific example, but obviously still hierarchy exists in any kind of biblical interpretation when you're trying to leverage power structures. So those are the four really harmful ones. And in the book I engage with stories about people who've had those leveraged against them. Real personal stories, but also texts that sometimes, like curse of Ham or whatever, that sometimes get used to and Then the whole goal is how do we identify and kind of discard those lenses, at least be aware of them, and then how do we maybe replace them with some healthier lenses? So I start with this lens of Jesus, this kind of Christocentric lens which is attempting to interpret all scripture through the life and teachings of Jesus. This kind of core Christian conviction that I have that Jesus is God incarnate, God in the flesh, and the fullest picture we have of who God is and what God is like. And so if there's something that's ascribed to God, maybe somewhere else in the text, but it's in opposition to the way or the teachings of Jesus, then we have to choose to interpret through the lens of Jesus. Context is the second one. I get into a little bit of historical critical stuff, but this is a very popular level book. So I really just. I talk a lot about. Yeah, what was going on at the time, who wrote this? Who did they write it to? What were they trying to do? As much as we can know. And then I do spend quite a bit of time in genre in this, you know, just really trying to say, you know, it's. It's not one book. It's 66 books. And there are about 10 or 12 different genres of literature, which, when we read a science fiction book or something, we know this is a science fiction book. But then we might read a book like Revelation and read it like, you know, either history or future prediction or something like that, when in reality, that's not the genre of it, you know. The third one is Flourishing, which I touched on earlier. This is the chapter I. I really dive deep into liberation theology. And this really comes down to, you know, I think you can see this all throughout Jesus's time, right? Luke 4, his first sermon in the synagogue. He says, this is why I came, you know, to set the captives free, declare good news to the poor, you know, recovery of sight for the blind, the year of the Lord's favor. You go all the way to Matthew 25, and, you know, the way you treat the people who are the least of these is how you treat me. But then, you know, John 10:10 is this verse I come back to a lot where Jesus says, I came to bring life and life to the full. He's got this one sentence mission statement, you know, I came to help people flourish. But the truth is we're not all flourishing. And some people are flourishing a lot less than others because of man made really deeply sinful things. And so flourishing says we need to interpret Scripture in ways that liberate folks. And the last one is fruitfulness. And it's probably the most kind of pastoral one that I use all the time. Because a question I get, not just about how do I interpret the Bible, but how do I live? How do I know if I'm doing the right things, if I'm following Jesus? And I say, well, you know, Jesus says that you'll know his followers by their fruit. Galatians says the fruit of the Spirit's love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. So when we are doing biblical interpretation, we need to be asking, is this interpretation leading to love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. In me and in my community? And if it's not, then I think that the Spirit of God is not in it, because that is the yield that is the fruit of the Spirit of God at work are those things. And so prioritizing interpretations that lead to those fruit in our lives, in our community. [00:32:39] Speaker B: That's good. Yeah. And I know so, I mean, obviously, like I work with undergrad students and there's this interesting dynamic that happens because most of my students in some ways have not read their Bibles at all. [00:32:53] Speaker C: Right. [00:32:53] Speaker B: Like that's. My average student has, but they definitely have a lot of those, what you call harmful hermeneutics. They've inherited those very strongly. Right? [00:33:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:02] Speaker B: They don't interacted very little with the Bible, but also are very strong and they're not aware that there are any other options for engaging and interpreting once they actually begin to engage and interpret. So even when they feel like they're committed more to the hermeneutical, those lenses than they are to the actual text sometimes, which is just interesting. But I think that this resource that you're talking about and the way to kind of move towards this kind of healing, liberative, Jesus centered. Right. Contextual flourishing fruit of the spirit. Like, I mean, that's beautiful, right? I think that's really beautiful. So taking all of that, let's, let's grab with that lens and let's return back to Luke 21, maybe have a conversation around how maybe, you know, this kind of lens. Lens is a restorative lens that maybe can potentially turn the world upside down. [00:33:55] Speaker C: Yes, yes, I appreciate that so much, Drew. So this text in Luke 21 is a very classic, at least in the circles I came from. Fundraising text, the widow's might. She gives her last two coins. Everybody else gave just a little off the top, but. But she dug deep, you know what I mean? She gave everything she had. But I remember, and I never really questioned that interpretation, to be very candid with you. Like, I just really hadn't until about six or eight years ago. I have a woman in our church who asked me to go to coffee, and she's like, I need to go, like, as soon as possible. Like today if possible. I've just got this really terrible thing going on. So I move some stuff around. We go sit down. She's already crying when we sit down. And she tells me the story about her grandparents. And she's someone who grew up in church but had horrible experiences and had not come back to church until like, a year before at our church. But it spent most of her adult life completely out and fairly antagonistic. The only Christians that she knew and loved were her grandparents. And so she would go to church sometimes when she would visit them and things like that. And she said, the last time I was visiting my grandparents who were on a fixed income and stuff, she walked into their house and. And the heat was off, the electricity was off. There was barely any food in the fridge. And she's like, grandma and Grandpa, what's going on? You know, like, you guys, you have a fixed income. You've budgeted exactly what you need. Like, did something come up? Medical expense, whatever. And they said, well, no. Our pastor told us that, you know, the church is in trouble and we all need to dig deep and help as much as possible. And we learned the story of the widow's might and how there were these people who just gave a little off the top, but she gave everything she had. And so we're going to give everything we have, even if it causes us to go through some temporary suffering. It's no comparison, you know, on this side of glory, it's no comparison to heaven. And obviously she's, you know, the granddaughter, my friend, is angry and, you know, gives them money, gets their stuff turned back on. But I remember this so vividly, sitting across Martha's coffee shop, tears in her eyes, and she says, is that story really in the Bible? And I was like, yeah, it is. And she says, is that, like, the only way to understand it is that. And I. I had never known anyone. I'd never heard it interpreted differently, but I never known anyone who'd actually done it, who'd actually given everything that they have, right? And it ended up leading her grandmother to her grandparents, to a place of extreme harm. And so I went back and I was like, there has to be better ways of interpreting this text. And so ended up reading a lot. And you know, one of the tricks of good biblical interpretation, I tell people all the time when they're like, where do I start with, you know, good biblical interpretation? I tell them read the verse around whatever is being preached. [00:36:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:40] Speaker C: And so if you go back in this Luke 21 passage, it starts in verse one, but we all know, right, chapters and verses and stuff are they're, they're man made, they're added later. This is not the beginning of a story, it's actually the end of a story. And so if you go back to Luke 20, I'm going to read just the last couple of verses. It says, while all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples, beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogue and the places of honor at banquets, yet they shamelessly cheat widows out of their property. Another, another translation says they devour widows houses and then pretend to be pious by making long prayers in public. Because of this, they will be severely punished. And then it just goes right into, while Jesus was in the temple, he watched the rich people dropping off, blah, blah, blah. And then I also had an Old Testament scholar friend point out to me, Jesus does not say anything positive about her gift. He just points out that she gave all she had. In fact, he says she gave all she had to live on and that the other people were giving just a little bit of their abundance. And so when we connect this interpretation back to verse 20. So, right, so we are, chapter 20, we incorporate that context lens, right? What was happening at this time, what's happening around the text. Text. But then we also interpret it through the flourishing lens to say, okay, well this text has not led to flourishing for my friend's grandparents. And so this can't be the correct way of interpreting it, you know. [00:38:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:10] Speaker C: We actually get to a place where if we engage with it through those lenses, we see maybe that a better interpretation is that Jesus is actually condemning predatory generosity that's put on top of people who have nothing. And that the tithing system as it was set up in the Jewish world was supposed to actually take care of this poor widow who came in. Right. And she wasn't supposed to be giving anything, she was supposed to be receiving when she came in. Right. There were supposed to be other people who tithe so that she could have what she needed. But because of the predatory generosity practices that were put onto people at this time, Specifically because of the entanglement with the Roman Empire and the taxation, all this stuff. She was being exploited rather than being helped. Right. And when you read it all together, you really can't miss it. He says, these people are devouring widows houses. And then he literally says, a poor widow came by and dropped in two small coins. I mean, it is like, deeply, perfectly connected. We just miss it. I completely missed it for my entirety of ministry, seminary, all that kind of stuff. So that's the text that I really. That's one that I go back to a lot when I'm thinking about better interpretations. Is that an interpretation that you guys have encountered with that text before? [00:39:27] Speaker B: Yeah, so actually I do the same. I think I draw from Mark, but I do the same thing in who will be a Witness. I talk about the exact same thing and make them look at what it says right before and how they devour widows homes. And that. That is the vocation. Right. The people of God were called to care for the widows and the orphans. And so, I mean, I think that that is so fundamental. And so. And I do one thing I say, and I think especially for Gospel of Mark, I do say, like, clearly for Mark, clearly the marker of discipleship is willing to lay everything down for Christ, but it clearly for Jesus, this is a lament that the system would take everything from this widow. Right. And so it's both those things simultaneously. She should not have to give up everything with the system. They should be providing for her. And yet she is faithfully nonetheless, laying it all down for others. Right. And I think. But the story that I often think about, which maybe connects to your story, Zach, that I share quite a bit, and I always think about in particular with this text that my mom would always remind us growing up is precisely that when we were young. So I. I grew up in. I'm similar to my grand. I was my grandfather, my great grandfather, my dad, like this long line of preachers and all that stuff in the life of. Of the church. And yet also, like, we did not have much growing up, especially through, like mid-90s, right. Like, we were poor. And at our church, the women's group had like, they. To do to get things done. They would have dues and so you. Everyone would pay $5 dues to. Yeah, everyone sounds easy, right? Everybody put in a little bit and you're good. And mom reminds us that there was this time where she literally had $5 left total for our family. Right. [00:41:24] Speaker C: Wow. [00:41:25] Speaker B: And so she's like, torn, like, does she give it to the church or does and trust God. Right. Which is what people would have taught. Or does she hold onto it to provide for her family? And she would always tell that particular story and others like that as ways of like, you know, it's those kind of like, remember where you came from? Because we did, like, we joined the middle class, my dad became a pastor and all that, like, so our lives changed. And I think that was. She would like to tell those kind of stories. But that particular one always resonated with me, with this particular one, because it should not be asking to give everything and to make that kind of choice for one's own survival. The church literally should be providing for those who are suffering and struggling. So, yeah, I really appreciate that read. [00:42:10] Speaker C: Yeah, man, that's such a good personal story. Too connected to it. Yeah. I'm blown away by. When you read them together, it's almost like Jesus says, okay, there are these people that are in these positions of religious power and authority who have gotten in bed with the Roman Empire and are now exploiting people and doing terrible things and blah, blah, blah. In fact, one of the worst examples things they do is they exploit widows. And then it's like. And he's like. And there goes one right now. It's so deeply connected. [00:42:41] Speaker B: It's like a play by play too. He's like gathering them. He's like, like, watch this, watch out. Right? Yeah. It's wild narrating it. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. I'm. [00:42:51] Speaker A: I'm thinking in particular, and I love that you chose Luke because as Drew points out that in Mark there's a artificial break in the story, but in Luke it's actually a chapter break. So it's even like more emphasized. Like, but to. To go back to like the unhelpful lenses, hermeneutics that people are often offered. Let's see if I get it in the right order. Literal, apocalyptic, moralistic, and oh, the last one you've just shared. Hierarchical, right? I was gonna say authoritarian, but yeah, same thing. Yeah, hierarchical. Like if you actually bring it back to what's going on before and after, which is so. I mean, for so many people, your advice around just like put the text in context. Like, as I. It's probably the most quoted Jared quote. A text without a context is sure sign you're being conned that like, if. If you put the text in context, Jesus give an answer that's shut down the teachers. No one wants to ask more questions. And then Jesus starts with your final lens, which is authoritarianism or hierarchy as you put it. And it's a question about David and the son of David, and how can the king, the anointed one, the Messiah, be a son of David? And Jesus is basically going, sure, son of David, but actually, David is not where I get my authority from. And it's like, whoa. Like that whole passage and like him quoting Psalm 110 there. David calls him Lord. How can he then be his son? So Jesus saying, my authority isn't coming from, like, an ancestor and the kind of position that he held and then goes into while people were listening. Beware of the teachers of the law. They walk around flowing robes, love to greet in the marketplace. And then all that stuff about devastating widows that you've talked about. But then on the other side of it, so we've got literally the hierarchical, the literal, the moral in terms of not exploiting. And your final category is actually found on the other side, where it's like, he goes to. This is what they're doing in the temple, exploiting people. And then, like, I tell you the truth, that, like, not stone. One stone will be left upon another saying that this isn't it. It isn't about the restoration of either our own. Own pharaoh, David at its best. It's not that Empire imitation game that we're doing here. I don't get my authority from David, nor is it about restoring the splendor of his kingdom, nor Solomon's, because the glory of the lilies of the field is greater than the threads that Solomon is dressed in that come through exploitation. Don't expect, like, the restoring of, like, this temple. That's not the project which God is on about. And I'm enacting all your categories in this passage. Zach, you've done your homework. Like, you've chosen. That actually kicked a goal in every single one of those areas, because it's. It's literally all there, right? Like, the. It's not literal apocalyptic, reframed not as something that scares you, but something that actually validates moral action, which is not moralistic, but actually solidarity with those who are on the other side of, like, Empire's might. And then the hierarchical. It's. It's beautiful, man. [00:46:07] Speaker C: Listen, man, you. You got to come to Austin and preach every lens via that text. Because, yeah, we should. Yeah, y' all should come and tag team it, really. Since Drew's already written about it and who will be a witness? We'll just, like, yeah, just come and lay the whole thing down. [00:46:23] Speaker A: If you could vote your current emperor out and return the American Experiment to like an action democracy I can get in the country because it's not that I don't have invites to go to the us it's both like managing family stuff here with little ones and bigger ones, four kids. But also just all the legal advice, quite seriously, Zach, is I shouldn't go to the US Like I think that's record and everything. Like I've been detained in the US prior to this during the Obama administration. Right. Like because of my record. Imagine under Trump. [00:46:59] Speaker C: Oh man. No, they just did, you see, they just barred the Venezuelan Little league baseball team from coming. They wouldn't give them visas. [00:47:06] Speaker B: I did hear that. Yeah. [00:47:08] Speaker A: Oh my God. Yeah. [00:47:09] Speaker C: Yes. [00:47:09] Speaker A: Stay. [00:47:10] Speaker C: Stay where you are, Jared, for you know, the sake of the gospel. [00:47:13] Speaker A: That said though, maybe we can find some creative ways for us all to tag team because I think, I think the importance of these conversations is it should directly connect to the reality of primary school children. Elementary school children, you would say, being taken out of their classro by people who have the kind of technology that was made for the Iraq War, only their ICE agents and children like being dragged out of their classrooms and detained. And this is what's happening in your nation right now. And this text is being used by televangelists to exploit people while the text is actually needed by people to actually resist the chaplains of those forces doing this horror at the moment. So we're not into a new David and we're not into like a building of a new temple and we're actually about standing with the widows so they can hold onto their mites and actually giving our mites to them so that they can have a chance at like in our current societies. It's so yeah, we should get creative about how. [00:48:15] Speaker C: I would love that. I would love that. But you bring up a good point that I just want to reiterate that this is a very real problem right now, the weaponization of the text. I mean we're not. And I'm not even just talking about in churches, I'm talking about. The Department of Homeland Security has released two videos in the last week with Bible verses with B roll of ICE agents behind it. Right. So the Isaiah, you know, here I am, send me. And then the proverbs. I think the proverbs, the, you know, the wicked will not prosper. I mean the, these are, these are official White House Department of Homeland Security co sponsored posts online that are dubbed with Bible verses and used to justify the inflicting of violence on some of the most marginalized people in Our communities. And I mean I, I get, I'm getting like hot and angry like talking about it. But like this is, this is so real. Because when you can, you all know this. But, but when you can baptize these horrible interpretations, when you can, when you can, you know, call empathy sinful, when it allows you to baptize cruelty, you know, and say that's actually from God. And here's a random text that allows us as a nation to treat people like they're subhuman. And this is, this has been going on the history of our country, I mean to, you know, native genocide to African enslavement. I mean all, all the way. But, but it's, it's happening now like right in front of us. I'm opening freaking Instagram and seeing videos like this from the Department of Homeland Security. [00:49:51] Speaker A: It's. [00:49:52] Speaker C: Yeah, it's horrific. It is entrenching. Drew. That's exactly right. And it's, it's. I don't know, maybe I'm naive, but it felt like there was when it wasn't as mainstreamed to do. [00:50:03] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I mean just what was it, two weeks when they, I mean officially voted to cut SNAP benefits and Medicaid right. From the most while given massive tax cuts and Christians are applauding it and supporting it and justifying it. I mean that's. This tax that's devouring widows homes. This is about. [00:50:27] Speaker C: That is exactly right. [00:50:30] Speaker B: And, and yet the same text will probably, that same Sunday is probably being. Trying to raise money. [00:50:36] Speaker C: That's right. [00:50:36] Speaker B: So they can have larger buildings and build their grams and all these things. Right. And so I mean this thing is alive and well and it's being manipulated as we speak. [00:50:48] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, full circle. Not even just to raise money for building this stuff, but also to raise money to build brands to, to gain influence which also ends up backing these policies. These politicians project 2025. I mean it's like polar different. Like. [00:51:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My wife's grandfather who was actually, he was the president of the Baptist World alliance, the first ever Australian in. And Southern Baptist hated him. That's how come I know so much about Southern Baptist. Right. Like he always said that when Satan comes to church, he always comes with the biggest leather bound Bible under his arm. [00:51:26] Speaker C: Amen. Yeah. [00:51:28] Speaker A: And that, that quote, it, it haunts me because I, I think people are so unaware that it's not just happened that Christianity is accidentally caught up in this. It's that if our like Christianity isn't a reflection of our Christ that it's actually something that you were quoting right at the start. I've come to bring life and life to its fullest in terms of flourishing. And if you're like, well, what does flourishing. I wish it was more specific. What it's not. Our Lord was just of it. Like, the thief comes killing, stealing and destroying. And if there's killing happening, if there's stealing happening, if there's destroying happening, it's not the one who's bringing the flourishing that you've been preaching. And for people to have that clear in. In their head is so important. And that's why I'm so thankful, mate, for. This is something I shared on social media from you just the other day. You said, I will never understand how it's controversial to say stop starving children, especially if you call yourself a Christian. If your version of Christianity can justify the forced starvation of children, it's not from Jesus. [00:52:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:37] Speaker A: It's sometimes just saying the really obvious thing, like the really obvious thing that is the most powerful because like, like, I mean, to hear Isaiah quoted, it's like Che Guevara being quoted to back up authoritarian, like fascism. It's like, what. How do you. And if America has a particular gift, it's that as empires have done previously, but you do it with like Hollywood kind of flair. You take all the profits that would critique and lead us into something that would truly deliver us and then turn them into a cartoon to back up Empire. And whether it's Rosa parks, whether it's Dr. King, whether it's Malcolm X, whether it's Dorothy Day, like, the ability of the American empire to take back these figures that would call them out of this direction of death and instead make them like a mascot for it is. [00:53:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:38] Speaker A: Unbelievable. [00:53:39] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, probably no one more so than Jesus Christ. [00:53:48] Speaker A: Like, if you can do it with Jesus, you can do it with anyone. [00:53:50] Speaker B: You can do it with anybody. Right. I think. Who is. I think it's Cornel West. I think he's the one who said he called it for King. Santa Claus. Ification. [00:53:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:00] Speaker C: Yeah. Erna Kim Hackett calls it Disney princess theology. And. Yeah. And her, her great. Her great book. But yeah, I mean, talk about. We don't need to get. I know we're running out of time, but talk about the apocalypse lens at work when we're talking about what's happening in. In Gaza and the support, you know, that so many Christians have because they've become convinced by this very specific and, and ridiculous eschatological vision. Of what has to happen in the Middle east in order for Jesus to return that they have now justified. Yeah, the, the forced starvation of children, the, the bombing of innocent people. I mean it's, it's unbelievably horrific, you know, and I, like, I, I saw, you probably saw this maybe a few weeks ago that Ted Cruz was on Tucker Carlson's show. And I've never forgive Ted Cruz for making me like Tucker Carlson for one second. I'll never forgive him for that. But he, he, Tucker Carlson asks Ted Cruz, like, why do you just support Israel no matter what? And he says, because the Bible tells me so. And like that, that lens of this flat literalistic and then apocalyptic reading of the text that now is being used to, and I'm not even sure he believes that or not, but he's using it and it's resonating with a whole lot of Christians. [00:55:18] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. Which, which is maybe the significance of it is that there's enough people for whom this is meaningful that politicians feel that they can say it and it lets them off the hook. [00:55:29] Speaker C: Yeah, that's exactly right, mate. [00:55:34] Speaker A: We have some creative collaboration and conspiring to do. I'm thankful for your voice, thankful that you're. It's so understandable given formation in death dealing forms of Christianity for people to walk away. It is so powerful when people wrestle with the tradition and allow the spirit to actually like bring something that leads others out. So thank you for being a Miriam and a Moses and not just keeping your head down in the desert for so many people who, not merely in your context, it's just America's really helpful because it's like everything on, like an energy drink, it's just everything on steroids. Like it's, it's just, it's more so than everywhere else, but it's here as well. So thank you for your work and witness, mate. We appreciate you. [00:56:25] Speaker C: It means a lot, really. I, I want to just reiterate what I said at the beginning that I have listened to and learned from you both for a lot of years, even before either of any of us met. And so it is, is an honor to be with you, to talk with you, but also to be arms locked in this liberative work, truly. [00:56:44] Speaker B: Amen. Amen. [00:56:45] Speaker C: Yep. [00:56:45] Speaker B: Looking forward to connecting. I know our, our circles have intersected more and more increasingly, so I'm looking forward to catching up more and more with you as well. Blessings and all that you do and all your ministry and as you serve your community. [00:56:59] Speaker C: Thank you I appreciate you guys. [00:57:01] Speaker A: If people do want to follow you from near or afar, what are the best places to kind of find you? [00:57:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I do long form writing on substack. Zach Lambert. The substack is called public theology. And then I'm at Zach W. Lambert on all the socials. Probably still most active on Instagram and Twitter. And the book comes out August 12th. [00:57:20] Speaker A: Still on Twitter. [00:57:22] Speaker C: Still on Twitter. Yeah. And I'm still calling it Twitter. Still. Yeah. [00:57:25] Speaker A: I mean, of course. Right? [00:57:27] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, it was just one of those things that I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna hang out there and keep. I don't interact a lot, but I'm gonna post my things and see what happens, you know, and if it helps one person, then I'll be a stomachache. [00:57:39] Speaker A: In the belly of the beast, man. [00:57:40] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But, yeah. The book comes out August 12th. It's called Better Ways to Read the Bible. Transforming a weapon of harm into a tool of healing. And it is a labor of love, a pastoral labor of love that, honestly, I don't care what it sells or how it charts or anything like that. If it helps some people re engage with the text, if it helps them have more liberative understandings of scripture, and if it helps set some people free, or if it helps them just be exposed to bell hooks, whatever it takes, I want it to happen. [00:58:10] Speaker A: Amen. Amen. Thank you, brother. [00:58:13] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:58:14] Speaker C: The Inverse podcast is proudly supported by you, the listener. And if you want to join the revolutionaries who are helping us, have conversations about how this ancient text can still turn the world upside down, why don't you head over to patreon.com/. Sam.